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Date:	12/8/99 6:57:45 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 8 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1465<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re:  Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Salvage Rights in Space<BR>
Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
Re: Salvage Rights in Space<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nobility Book - Huzzuh!<BR>
Re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Re: New Pictures<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED SAAB<BR>
Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
RE: New Pictures<BR>
Re: Primitive Communications Media<BR>
Hey there<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Hey there<BR>
Re: OT Flamebait: realism of war movies<BR>
Re: electronic warfare<BR>
Re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
Re: OT Flamebait: realism of war movies<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:56:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
>From: isteve@outhere.f9.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
>How do people handle salvage rights?  For that <BR>
>matter, how do they work in the real world?<BR>
<BR>
I forgot to mention insurance.  If the ship had some<BR>
kind of loss insurance, that insurance was triggered<BR>
when the ship was missing for some period of time<BR>
stated in the policy, and the insurance company paid<BR>
the beneficiary of the policy, typically the owner. <BR>
Who is the owner is set forth in my previous post.  <BR>
<BR>
So now the insurance company steps into the shoes of<BR>
the owner when the salvagers bring the ship back to<BR>
civilization.  <BR>
<BR>
An insurance company could be a patron, if it's<BR>
cheaper to send a few PCs to look for a ship than to<BR>
pay the claim. <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 18:52:24 -0600<BR>
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com><BR>
Subject: Salvage Rights in Space<BR>
<BR>
Howdy all,<BR>
<BR>
Seems to me that the salvage value of a ship is balanced by<BR>
1) rendering a mandated service to a ship in distress<BR>
2) personal risk involved in the above<BR>
<BR>
Space is big, and Traveller is an often nasty universe to play in.<BR>
If you find a derelict, that-which-caused-its-deriliction may well<BR>
still be on board.<BR>
<BR>
If the ship has a lean on it, the lean holder takes the ship minus<BR>
a (large) percentage of the equity, which is the finder's fee.  If<BR>
the ship was owned by the deceased/missing, salvage rights apply<BR>
and the ship is theirs, including all on board which is not owned<BR>
by some other entity (freight springs to mind).<BR>
<BR>
If the ship has a pathogen, parasite, or pirate on board, then<BR>
fun may commence.<BR>
<BR>
- -Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 16:51:20 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 12/7/99 6:56 PM, semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There is a third option, though. This option is that the book is an<BR>
> extremely complicated exercise in irony where the nature of the society is<BR>
> one that is *supposed* to be unpalatable to a large degree to hammer home<BR>
> the issue of classical civic duty. This could very well be the case, as<BR>
> Heinlein, in other works, seems to be extremely interested in the concept of<BR>
> civic duty.<BR>
<BR>
This is how I interpreted the book, and why I thought the movie was a fine<BR>
adaptation. I can see how the two seem very different, but one must remember<BR>
that a book and a movie have very different ways of communicating. Take Bram<BR>
Stokers Dracula, both the book and the movie. There are major differences in<BR>
the two, but I felt the movie was very true to the *feeling* of the book. It<BR>
took me a few times watching it, as I had an emotional revulsion to certain<BR>
bits in the movie that initially seemed contrary to the book, but the<BR>
intended audience is in a very different time period. This, and the "show,<BR>
don't tell" nature of film media are the main reasons for changes between<BR>
the two. ST the book was very serious in tone, ST the movie was a farce,<BR>
bordering on slapstick at times. I can see that raising hackles on Heinlein<BR>
fans, and I was disoriented myself on my first viewing. But it had been some<BR>
time since I had read the book, so I was able to experience the movie as a<BR>
separate work.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:58:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Salvage Rights in Space<BR>
<BR>
Robert Eaglestone writes:<BR>
> Howdy all,<BR>
> <BR>
> Seems to me that the salvage value of a ship is balanced by<BR>
> 1) rendering a mandated service to a ship in distress<BR>
> 2) personal risk involved in the above<BR>
> <BR>
> Space is big, and Traveller is an often nasty universe to play in.<BR>
> If you find a derelict, that-which-caused-its-deriliction may well<BR>
> still be on board.<BR>
<BR>
Since odds are 'that-which-caused-its-deriliction' involves severe mechanical malfunction, that's usually true.  Intact ships are rather unlikely salvage.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:41:10 +1100 <BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nobility Book - Huzzuh!<BR>
<BR>
>Gentlebeings:<BR>
><BR>
>The question has come up in house WRT GT Nobles: What does the fanbase want<BR>
>to see. One suggestion is to do a collection of PCs (a la GURPS Wizards or<BR>
>GURPS Warriors), but I find this unsatisfactory (although any such book<BR>
>will need to give the most important Imperial nobles as PCs). How much<BR>
>should e devoted to life at the Imperial court? What burning questions<BR>
>(about nobles) need to be addressed? How many angels can dance on a<BR>
>pinhead, and why does he put up with it at all?<BR>
<BR>
Maybe it's just me, but Traveller nobility seems to be a rather narrow topic<BR>
for a 128 page book. And not a very interesting topic at that, either.<BR>
A generous and sadistic GM,<BR>
Brandon Cope<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Well hell, to each their own I say.<BR>
<BR>
Personally I would like to see the following...<BR>
<BR>
Typical Noble Hobbies<BR>
A detailed 'how to' for court politics<BR>
Details of noble factions and background history<BR>
The difference between life and hereditary nobility as it applies to PCs.<BR>
How each look upon the other<BR>
The role of Legates, Governors Vs Planetary nobility<BR>
Planetary nobility Vs Imperial Nobility<BR>
The role of Nobility in government<BR>
How nobles earn their money (taxes, investments, commercial use of their<BR>
fief), typical income for each nobility level<BR>
Expectations for noble kiddies e.g. Naval Academy & navy for a couple of<BR>
terms, before taking up their heritage<BR>
Age of majority for inheritance for Nobility<BR>
The prevalence of Imperial Nobles in the imperial population<BR>
The powers of an Imperial Noble on the world where their title is derived<BR>
(legal immunity?, call out military powers? Figureheads?)<BR>
Inheritance rules (Male heir, equal between sexes?)<BR>
Expectations of nobility by imperial citizenry<BR>
<BR>
Man I could go on but I'll stop now. Of you go Loren, me wanna see soon -<BR>
chop chop. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:21:55 -0500<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:50:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
><BR>
>>From: isteve@outhere.f9.co.uk<BR>
><BR>
>>How do people handle salvage rights?  For that <BR>
>>matter, how do they work in the real world?<BR>
><BR>
>My understanding is as follows:  <BR>
<BR>
[Great stuff deleted, all true in the real world, anyway.]<BR>
<BR>
The only point I would add is that it's not clear what rights the Imperium<BR>
itself holds. In English common law (as I understand it) the Lord of the<BR>
Manor was entitled to take whatever washed up on his property. Since the<BR>
Imperium holds little real estate directly, but claims control of all<BR>
interplanetary and interstellar space, it may be that ships found derelict<BR>
and drifting belong first to the Imperium, while wrecks would fall under<BR>
planetary jurisdiction. It would be in the Emperor's interest to pay a<BR>
generous reward for salvage, though, because it discourages piracy.<BR>
<BR>
>>How does it work in the real world, any legal eagles <BR>
>>specialising in International Maritime Law on the <BR>
>>list?  <BR>
<BR>
"Salvage" actually covers any action taken to rescue a ship in distress,<BR>
even if the crew is still onboard. Depending on how difficult and dangerous<BR>
the assistance turns out to be, the salvors can be entitled to up to 50% of<BR>
the value of the salvaged vessel. The bottom line, though is: "No cure --<BR>
no pay."<BR>
<BR>
Military vessels are immune to salvage liens.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels, our other lawyer, provided the following links in response<BR>
to a request for information from me:<BR>
<BR>
>This looks like a nearly perfect site for you:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.safesea.com/salvage/salcon_89/salcon_89.html<BR>
>I'm working my way through this -- it's good stuff.<BR>
><BR>
>I think you could lift whole sections of this and adapt it to GT.<BR>
><BR>
>It seems that a lot of companies use the Lloyd's Standard<BR>
>Form of Salvage Agreement, which requires that English<BR>
>law be applied.<BR>
><BR>
>Here's the link to Lloyd's if you haven't seen it.<BR>
>http://www.lloyds.com/homepages/agencysalvage_hp.htm<BR>
><BR>
>There you can download the form itself and see examples<BR>
>of it in action.  The form is governed by UK law, which<BR>
>explicitly uses the International Convention on Salvage as it is<BR>
>incorporated into UK law, in the Merchant Shipping Act.<BR>
<BR>
>>For that matter is this covered by canon?<BR>
<BR>
"Annic Nova," JTAS #1, p. 30, says:<BR>
<BR>
"...this ship is allowed in imperial commerce under the salvage laws<BR>
provided the ship is registered with imperial authorities (typical<BR>
registration fee: Cr100,000)."<BR>
<BR>
That text was not included in Dbl Adv 1, however.<BR>
<BR>
Adv. 13 (Signal GK), p. 46, adds:<BR>
<BR>
"The Imperial Navigation Act of 103 requires all vessels, whether military<BR>
or civilian, to respond to the GK, SOS, or Mayday signals, provided such<BR>
response does not endanger the ship and crew of the responding vessel."<BR>
<BR>
This subject comes up briefly in GT: Far Trader (pp. 60-61, 71 & 114) and<BR>
GT: Starports, and will be covered in considerable detail in the<BR>
forthcoming GT: Starships.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:30:59 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Pictures<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 12/8/99 10:49 AM, mlinsenmayer@symantec.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And I am working an expansive starport scene, kinda tech 9 ish.<BR>
<BR>
Love them both, the soda cans are a great touch!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:57:35 +1100 <BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED SAAB<BR>
<BR>
The thing with SAAB was that it's initial season was really uneven, but it<BR>
should have been given a chance.  Every SF show, it seems, needs a season to<BR>
work out the kinks.  I tried watching B5 the first season and was repulsed.<BR>
Started watching again in the 3rd one and was totally hooked!  Same with<BR>
S:TNG. Not that it every got really good IMO, but it went from terrible to<BR>
okay by third season.<BR>
Back to SAAB Problems:<BR>
1.	It needed someone with military knowledge as an assistant director<BR>
(or maybe someone who had once read a book about the military, or who had<BR>
lived within a few miles of an army base or SOMETHING! :-) <BR>
2.	The banking fighters were okay.  They were semi-realistic with the<BR>
rolling ability and stuff, but why not go all the way and do vector<BR>
movement?<BR>
3.	Some episodes were unwatchable due to bad acting and writing.  The<BR>
"Little tank that could" one was terrible and the "Flickering light as psych<BR>
weapon" one was beyond horrible. <BR>
<BR>
Having said that, I thought some episodes were brilliant: "Who Monitors the<BR>
Birds" was great!  I should've been given some time to get its legs under<BR>
itself...<BR>
Lesson for SF TV writers:  Keep the number of characters small so you can<BR>
actually develop them a little!  Three main characters with 3 secondary<BR>
seems to be a winning formula (Think Kirk / Spock / McCoy with Scotty / Sulu<BR>
/ Chekov).<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
RANT BEGINS<BR>
<BR>
Bad Charles, naughty Charles. <BR>
<BR>
I loved everything EVERYTHING about that show. IMHO I thought it was close<BR>
to Trav as a show could be (apart from FTL and quick jumps). The writing was<BR>
just friggin' superb - what else could you expect from Wong and Morgan (if<BR>
there were publicity pics of those two, there would be some sort of shrine<BR>
in their honour) and whatever writers they brought on board. <BR>
<BR>
It kicked the living poop out of anything else I have ever EVER seen in the<BR>
Sci Fi world. And as for Marines/Pilots, everyone knows that's a plot<BR>
device. You can't have a show with just pilots - that'd be as boring as<BR>
hell. There has to be justification for them being on the ground and being a<BR>
combo trained force is good enough for me. Geez, look at ST. Teleporters?<BR>
Just a way to get the protagonists into the action without boring screen<BR>
time wasting link scenes.  I never hated the writing, not once. <BR>
<BR>
Plus I loved the idea of Tanks (Nipple Necks), the AI's and the whole secret<BR>
within a secret within a secret that M&W are so very good at using - a layer<BR>
off every couple of episodes.<BR>
<BR>
So I'll be god damned before I see people slagging off this magnificent<BR>
program <grinny grin grin> . . . . and curse the near-sighted dicks at FOX<BR>
that let it die.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
RANT ENDS<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, 5-6 characters can work and work well. IMO it did in SAAB. Each<BR>
character had excellent motivation or overlying stresses which came out time<BR>
and time again.<BR>
<BR>
As for favourite episode - Cooper Hawke's origin. They way they interspersed<BR>
the present (where he was stalking chigs - no dialogue whatsoever) with the<BR>
flashbacks to his past, to date is the finest sci-fi episode of anything I<BR>
have ever seen.<BR>
<BR>
Bravo - many hats into air. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael Hughes<BR>
Knowledge Edge Engagement Policy  & US/NZ Team<BR>
International Policy Division<BR>
Australian Defence Headquarters<BR>
Australian Department of Defence<BR>
<BR>
Phone (B): (02) 6265 6112<BR>
Phone (H): (02) 6296 1055<BR>
Fax:       (02) 6265 7225<BR>
Email: michael.hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au<BR>
<mailto:michael.hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:26:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry wrote:<BR>
> But if you are going to so completely destroy a<BR>
> man's book (not one of his<BR>
> best, I'll agree, but one that was a big influence<BR>
> on my decision to join<BR>
> the Army) with the casual air he gave it..  ick.<BR>
<BR>
Kyle whooped and replied:<BR>
Me, too! And I thought I was the only one so inspired!<BR>
Certainly I was the only one on basic training with<BR>
_books_ in my locker (I was naive, okay?!) I read Will<BR>
Owen in Africa...<BR>
<BR>
Ah, Heinlein on the reposnsibilities of a citizen...<BR>
is voting really an expression of force? In a majority<BR>
democracy, I suppose it is...<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:35:23 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: New Pictures<BR>
<BR>
THAT'S what I wish I woulda' had the time to do [referring to the starport]<BR>
for "Starports".  DAMN!  VERY nice Mike!  Unfortunately, I never had the<BR>
time with the deadline and my system crash.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mike<BR>
Linsenmayer<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:50 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: New Pictures<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hey again... The lurker posts once more.<BR>
<BR>
I posted a new picture of the 'Blue Moon' a 100 ton scout ship.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/picture-d.htm<BR>
<BR>
And I am working an expansive starport scene, kinda tech 9 ish. take a look<BR>
at<BR>
what I have so far... be kind, let me know what you think should be added<BR>
taken<BR>
away etc.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/art/projects_under_construction.htm<BR>
<BR>
any way  there are the links if any one is interested....<BR>
<BR>
Thanks All<BR>
<BR>
Keep on Travellen<BR>
Mike Linsenmayer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:56:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Primitive Communications Media<BR>
<BR>
From: <isteve@outhere.f9.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> This is probably old news to you guys, but sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling\'s<BR>
pet project is a collection of \"dead\" communication<BR>
> media. Check out the web page at :<BR>
<BR>
I've mentioned the Dead Media project within the last month or so. The<BR>
mailing list is great, mostly trivia... but for culture building geeks like<BR>
myself it's a gold mine! ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:38:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Hey there<BR>
<BR>
Hiya Thomas,<BR>
<BR>
You aren't a relative of Scott Vickers, are you, who<BR>
works on a NASA funded metereological project, and was<BR>
once a chopper pilot in Vietnam with my father?<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:42:46 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>>Back to Traveller, however, there is no guarantee<BR>
that the other<BR>
non-human<BR>
species have this tendency [to not want to kill].<BR>
Watch out.>><BR>
<BR>
i think there is a guarantee - natural selection. Any<BR>
species that's eager to kill its own species will<BR>
never be terribly populous. If they do rise<BR>
technologically, it'll take longer, since thinking<BR>
types will tend not to survive!<BR>
<BR>
Whether they feel the same about other races is of<BR>
course another question, but my point is, how would<BR>
they ever make it off planet?<BR>
<BR>
Who here thinks that sqeauishness is perhaps a<BR>
survival trait for a technological species?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:21:50 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Hey there<BR>
<BR>
If you're talking to me, probably not.<BR>
As far as I know, I had no relatives that served in Vietnam, other than my<BR>
ex-wife's father, who was in the South Vietnamese Navy. :)<BR>
<BR>
Despite my relatively youthful age of 31, my family are all Korean and<BR>
W.W.II vets :)<BR>
There are LOTS of Vickers floating around. The more genealogy research I do,<BR>
the more amazed I am at how many we are. Maybe its a plot ;)<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Vickers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 8:15 PM<BR>
Subject: Hey there<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Hiya Thomas,<BR>
><BR>
>You aren't a relative of Scott Vickers, are you, who<BR>
>works on a NASA funded metereological project, and was<BR>
>once a chopper pilot in Vietnam with my father?<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
>KA Schuant<BR>
>member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int,<BR>
Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
>Melbourne<BR>
>Australia<BR>
><BR>
>"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it<BR>
binds the universe together"<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:16:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Flamebait: realism of war movies<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans asked:<BR>
> So a question for the folks who have read Grossman:<BR>
> Does he take the<BR>
> socialization route, or does he take the more direct<BR>
> "cause and effect"<BR>
> route? I am putting some books on my Christmas wish<BR>
> list, and this one might<BR>
> go on it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the most important point he makes is that the<BR>
methods the army uses to make it easier for men to<BR>
kill - desensitisation to blood, guts and suffering,<BR>
firing automatically when a "target" (person) appears,<BR>
making the targets appear human, instead of just<BR>
bullseyes - are all things that are happening to kids<BR>
with their movies, tv shows, and shoot 'em up video<BR>
games. In "Time Crisis" and so on, kids take a plastic<BR>
gun with a laser beam that goes "bang!" and has a<BR>
slight recoil when they pull the trigger, and fire<BR>
directly at figures as lifelike as the computers can<BR>
make it. In the army, we did something similar, where<BR>
there was a film from first-person perspective of a<BR>
grunt patrolling through the jungle, when you saw an<BR>
"enemy" you had to shoot him, your plastic gun with<BR>
its pretend recoil and laser beam shooting him down.<BR>
<BR>
I'll note also that in these video games, censorship<BR>
regulations mean that the figures after ebign shot<BR>
evapourate. You're not allowed to show blood and guts<BR>
and screaming and guys taking hours to die, crying for<BR>
their mothers, crapping in their pants, etc. Thus, the<BR>
shooting is without unpleasant consequences.<BR>
<BR>
As I see it, Grossman takes the socialisation view. Of<BR>
course, if there were no guns then no-one could be<BR>
killed with guns; whether this is practical, possible,<BR>
or desirable we'll leave aside, but simply put, if you<BR>
ain't got it, you can't use it. The retort that there<BR>
are still knives, baseball bats etc around so the<BR>
murder rate won't drop doesn't hold water, since<BR>
people, not just soldiers, find it easier to kill if<BR>
there is a physical distance between them and their<BR>
victim. Grossman points out that the simplest way to<BR>
kill a person is to stick your thumb in their eye and<BR>
slush it about through their brain, but that he's<BR>
never heard of anyone doing this.<BR>
<BR>
But I think for him the socialisation is more<BR>
important. The means to kill are available to anybody<BR>
who is not a paraplegic, but the desire, and, in the<BR>
end, the "guts" to do so, are a different matter. And<BR>
these games and movies are giving our kids the "guts"<BR>
to kill.<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:44:19 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: electronic warfare<BR>
<BR>
On 8 Dec 99, at 15:46, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I don't see comms as a limiting factor for high-tech troops. A combination<BR>
> of even today's technology is pretty hard to beat (just not the<BR>
> man-portable versions). If every MIB is communicating with a combination<BR>
> of stuff which we understand today, like frequency hopping,<BR>
> direct-sequence spread spectrum, etc, plus whatever stuff the advanced TLs<BR>
> bring, you will have a very hard time stopping him from communicating. If<BR>
> you are ahead by a TL or two, that's a different story. In that case, he<BR>
> will not have a prayer.<BR>
<BR>
The thing is not whether or not you can stop him talking, but whether <BR>
or not you can exploit his talking, a much easier task.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:46:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Well guys, there goes our salvage...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> How do people handle salvage rights?  For that matter, how do they work in <BR>
> the real world?<BR>
><BR>
> For example, our heroes come across a damaged, but basically intact ship <BR>
> adrift in the outer reaches of a remote system.  After checking<BR>
> the ship for survivors they find it deserted.  Once they manage to get the <BR>
> power plant online, drives working and get the ship refuelled they<BR>
> decide to leave a skeleton crew aboard, get her to civilisation and claim <BR>
> salvage rights. HOWEVER on further examination they discover this<BR>
> multi-million credit Free Trader was financed with 30 years left to pay off.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, as I understand real world salvage laws, if you bring an<BR>
*abandoned* vessel into port or salvage the cargo, the owners have<BR>
first dibs at buying it from you. If you don't like the offer, you can<BR>
take the matter before an "admiralty court". They are likely to award<BR>
you the *market value* of the vessel and cargo, plus a reasonable<BR>
amount for what it cost you to salvage the ship/cargo. And there's<BR>
essentially no appeal.<BR>
<BR>
So it behooves the owners to either make a *good* offer, or just let<BR>
you *have* the shp/cargo. They may offer you *somewhat* less than the<BR>
admiralty court would award on the basis of "we can give you this<BR>
*now*, rather than having to wait for the court decision". <BR>
<BR>
Players may go for this. On the other hand, they can also arrange to<BR>
have a lawyer or their "business agent" handle the matter for them.<BR>
They'd give a deposition and be able to leave. If there are questions,<BR>
the court can usually put things on hold long enough for you to return<BR>
to that planet and clear things up. Just don't dawdle around getting<BR>
there. They understand about having to finish a cargo run. They won't<BR>
look kindly on the matter if they find out that you got word of the<BR>
problem, and *then* took a contract that sent you elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
It may also be possible to have local officials take a sworn statement<BR>
regarding whatever the court had questions about. But most of the time<BR>
they'd rather question you themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Now if the vessel you salvaged *wasn't* abandoned (for example, at<BR>
least one of the crew was aboard and alive) things get messier.<BR>
Basicly, this means that that crewmember is still acting as an "agent"<BR>
for the owners, and all you will get is an award for "assisting" in<BR>
getting the ship back to port. Again, smart ship owners don't try to be<BR>
miserly about such awards, because you can appeal them to the admiralty<BR>
court, and they generally hand out reasonable rewards. <BR>
<BR>
Finally, if the ship/cargo has been abandoned long enough (20 years? 50<BR>
years? 100 years? I don't recall), it belongs to whoever can salvage<BR>
it. <BR>
<BR>
> The owner/operators are dead so does the ship belong to the bank?<BR>
<BR>
The bank owns the portion that wasn't paid for. In your example, 30<BR>
years out of 40 had been paid off, so we'll say that the bank owned<BR>
25%, the "owner" owned 75% (in actuality, mortages pay off more slowly<BR>
than that, until quite close to the end most of your payments go<BR>
against *interest*, not the principal).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, that gives bank 25%, heirs of the "owner(s)" 75%. <BR>
<BR>
> Is it like a mortgage where an insurance policy pays off the balance<BR>
> of the finance leaving the ship to be inherited by the owners' next<BR>
> of kin?<BR>
<BR>
Depends. If there's that sort of insurance, then the bank gets paid<BR>
off and the heirs "own" it, subject to the legitimate salvage claims<BR>
like I listed above. <BR>
<BR>
If it has a more common sort of insurance, the *insurance* company may<BR>
wind up owning the bank's share, and even that of the heirs. Especially<BR>
if they've been paid by the insurance company for the loss. <BR>
<BR>
>  Or does it belong to the salvaging PCs?<BR>
<BR>
Sort of. See my comments above.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:49:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Flamebait: realism of war movies<BR>
<BR>
David Pulver wrote:<BR>
<much good stuff snipped><BR>
> Ob-GURPS Trav issue:  Grossman's "natural warriors"<BR>
> are those who have the<BR>
> Combat Reflexes advantage.  Anyone else should have<BR>
> 1/2 Acc bonus at best.<BR>
<BR>
Kyle replied:<BR>
thanks, Dave, that's exactly the kind of stuff I was<BR>
wondering about. Yes, distance does help, either<BR>
physical distance, or racial/species difference.<BR>
<BR>
On your Ob Trav, I tend to have a different approach,<BR>
since 1/2 Acc bonus will cause squeals of outrage from<BR>
the players: I just say that the first few times they<BR>
do it, they have to make a kind of confidence roll,<BR>
willpower, health, that kind of thing, and they spend<BR>
a bit of time puking afterwards! (not necessarily<BR>
disgust at their actions, also an adrenalin rush, the<BR>
puking is like when you run too far and hard) After<BR>
the first few times, they get a bit colder... Of<BR>
course, years later they may have nightmares and<BR>
nervous breakdowns, but the only people I've ever met<BR>
who wanted to roleplay nightmares and nervous<BR>
breakdowns were Vampire players...<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1465<BR>
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